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Sunday, December 03, 2006

Remembering Genocide by Famine in Ukraine

Check out the post on Global Voices about the use of famine as a genocide weapon by Russia. Last Saturday Ukrainians held a memorial vigil to commemorate the victims of this relatively unknown holocaust, unknown because the facts have been suppressed and denied by the Russian perpetrators. And Russians wonder why Ukrainians want no part of them!

5 comments:

17 ugly raccoons said...

Collectivization took many lives in Ukraine, Southern Russia and Kazakhstan (more by technical reasons, less by political - but it takes too long to explain). Now some Ukrainians want to use their own dead separately for producing their national myth. It is their right. Some morons will try to use this myth to fuel anti-Russian attitude. It is their right too.

Problem is, such ideas are quite controversial with history, and some Ukrainians will be really disappointed when Russians will just shrug off their howling about 'moral', 'responsibility', and 'unprecedented'. Descendants of ancient Ukres trying to build their national identity on their incapability and humiliation. So be it.

La Russophobe said...

Russians didn't suffer the way Ukrainians did, and they did nothing to help Ukrainians while they were suffering. To the contrary, they hid the suffering from the eyes of the world.

Maybe Germans talk about "Russian myths" from Stalingrad and Leningrad. But the world would not be fooled, and it won't be fooled by "some morons" of the Russophile ilk who attempt to hide from their responsibility.

Russians murdered thousands of Polish officers in cold blood after World War II at Katyn. They destroyed Ukraine with famine. Instead of admitting their responsiblity like a civilized country, they try to deny it like barbarians. That is why Russia is rapidly becoming Zaire with Permafrost.

17 ugly raccoons said...

Russians didn't suffer the way Ukrainians did, and they did nothing to help Ukrainians while they were suffering.

Lie.

To the contrary, they hid the suffering from the eyes of the world.

And who said world in this time had any capability to help? Or we're talking about hiding the reason for another case of self-righteous condemnation from glorious and free Westerners to evil barbaric Russians? Sorry, go to circus instead, see dog and pony show.

But the world would not be fooled, and it won't be fooled by "some morons" of the Russophile ilk who attempt to hide from their responsibility.

Now you are speaking for whole world. Megalomania, right? And who's hiding what? There is no Russian responsibility in these events, period. Take it or leave it, I don't care. Your hysterical screams don't matter.

Russians murdered thousands of Polish officers in cold blood after World War II at Katyn.

La Rat, you are ignoble ignoramus. Fairy tale about Soviet killing attributes these to 1940, IIRC, which is way not after WWII.

Nice work from dr. Goebbels reanimated at perestroika and even backed with some obviously fake papers (if you repost here scans from so-called Beria's memo, I'll explain why it is fake).

They destroyed Ukraine with famine.

What for? Please, show some more of your idiocy. You know nothing about relevant matter, and you are perfect example of Western loser who trying to compensate her loser status in her own society by inventing moral highground for herself in the events abroad she hasn't clue about.

Instead of admitting their responsiblity like a civilized country, they try to deny it like barbarians.

Nope, we just don't accept slander from West and new West puppets which call themselves 'independent'. Anyway, 'civilized countries' have so much blood on their hands accumulated through their history that, imho, they haven't any right for accusations, regardless of some 'admittance of their responsibility' which never resurrects dead.

That is why Russia is rapidly becoming Zaire with Permafrost.

Only in your rapidly deteriorating brain or what's this thing inside your head.

Igor said...

Certainly this is a rather delicate issue on both sides. However, I do have to agree with 17ur's comment here that this was a concerted effort aimed against the peasantry (in an effort to forcibly extract grain, which Stalin suspected the "kulaks" were hiding from the government), but not against any particular nationality. Though there was some communication between Stalin and Kosior that points to a political element of this (i.e. struggle against Ukrainian nationalists), but I am of the opinion that better let historians argue that one...

However:

I've read the draft of this bill, and it is very carefully worded to point out the culpability of the Soviet political, not national, elites. Thus, Ukrainians were AMONG one of the nations that were subjected to systematic destruction, and the Ukrainian government officially recognizes this to commemorate the memory of those who suffered. Where is the Russophobia in that? Have they asked for reparations or blamed Russia specifically? Thus, nothing prevents the Russian (or Kazakh) government to pass a similar bill, though I suspect since Russia is the official successor to the Soviet state, that would be a rather uncomfortable process.

Descendants of ancient Ukres trying to build their national identity on their incapability and humiliation.

Though harshly-worded, there is some truth in this. Nation-building necessarily involves the element of suffering of the titular nation against a foreign oppressor. Sometime these events are glorious victories. Thus, the Russians have the Nevskaya Bitva, getting the Poles and Lithuanians out of Moscow (as far as I understand, the basis for National Unity Day), or Stalingrad. But in other cases, valiant struggle with tragic results can serve such a purpose as well, such as Kosovo Polje for the Serbs, or even Hetman Mazepa's loss at Poltava for the Ukrainians (in fact, when I was in Western city of L'viv in Ukraine a few years back, I lived on the street named after him). Also see the Armenian genocide in Turkey and of course, the Holocaust. The issue here is that the threat of destruction serves a solidifying purpose for national projects.

--Igor.

17 ugly raccoons said...

IGOR: it is very carefully worded to point out the culpability of the Soviet political, not national, elites.

If so, it is good. But you already see how some vulgar-minded persons twisting this question. And potential of using such twisting in today political issues is not small, especially if Ukraine will choose the path of client-state (of West or of Russia, not matters).

And I am standing by my point of view that main reason of losses in collectivization wasn't political but technical. It is really hard to imagine Stalin provoking deed which deprive him from houndreds of thousands future soldiers. It was mistake and tragedy, but not an intentional crime.

Nation-building necessarily involves the element of suffering of the titular nation against a foreign oppressor... The issue here is that the threat of destruction serves a solidifying purpose for national projects.

It is correct, I agree. But proverbial oppressor should be really foreign (like Turks for Serbs), or else you are not building a nation, but just distorting nation's perception of friends and foes, good and bad.

You may see how it ended with Poland, which long ago chose to alienate herself from Slavic world (in that time it meant heavy Russophobia integrating in their national identity). What was Poland at XVII centure and what of her is now? Sometimes I think they even cannot comprehend that divisions they cried about are results of their status as 'strangers' for East and West simultaneously.

I don't think such path is good for Ukraine.

P.S. I wonder how many jemaits (sorry for possibly wrong transcription) were expelled with Poles from Moscow? :-) Let's not forget that Lithuanians (Litvins) at that time were catolicized Belorussians, and they are not ancestors of modern Lithuanians.